Transcript for Episode 20 – Dr. Paul Offit

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helm for this episode our guest tonight

is dr. Paul Offit professor in the

division of infectious diseases and the

director of the vaccine Education Center

at the Children’s Hospital of

Philadelphia dr. off it welcome to hxp

thank you hey dr. Alfred dr. G here read

your recent book bad faith and before we

get into that can you tell us a little

more about how you got to where you are

in the medical community and some of the

projects projects you’ve been involved

with on your journey to being this

unofficial spokesperson for vaccinations

well I guess in this sort of usual

arbitrary and capricious ways that

people end up where they end up i did a

pediatric residency because i guess i

was drawn to to children’s health I was

in a polio word when I was five years

old I saw children in that ward suffer

and it just always stuck with me I think

that’s probably why I also picked

infectious diseases I started working

with a group at Children’s Hospital of

Philadelphia was interested in trying to

understand rotaviruses which are a virus

that cause fever and vomiting and

diarrhea and young children and and in

the world kills about 2,000 children

every day from dehydration so I worked

for 25 years with that team ultimately

we developed a series of strange that

became the rotavirus vaccine Road attack

which was licensed and recommended for

all children in 2006 and I guess I guess

the this the bigger issue is is I guess

with that I kind of learned how

difficult it was to make a vaccine I

mean to show that vaccines were exactly

what they claim to be and then I guess

associated with Andrew

fields claim that the measles mumps

rubella vaccine caused autism I I found

out how easy it was to damn them so hard

to make them easy to damn them and I

think that got me interested in trying

to explain the science of vaccines to

the public and this is dr. Wakefield

from the UK who can you tell us a more

about that was the MMR vaccine and the

his article in The Lancet was it exactly

so there was an article published in

1998 in The Lancet claiming a

combination measles mumps rubella MMR

vaccine caused autism it was a wasn’t

really a study it was a case series of

eight children who developed autism

within a month of receiving that vaccine

at best what you can say is that dr.

Wakefield raised the hypothesis he

certainly didn’t test it that hypothesis

has since been tested in many studies

and found to be incorrect Emma more

doesn’t cause autism a choice not to get

a measles mumps rubella vaccine only

increase your risk of getting those

diseases and doesn’t decrease your risk

of getting autism and this is from

extensive studies and extensive research

that are we going on right now god I

think they’re probably been 14 studies

that have looked at millions of children

retrospectively to see look at those who

did or didn’t receive MMR vaccine to see

whether the instance of autism was

greater than the vaccinated group and

clearly it wasn’t again and again and

again as studies have been done on three

different continents I think the

questions been asked and answered so I

know the Safari or the the major

research initiative for all the things

that are basically autism-related and

they gave a report recently that stated

that you know that we should probably

look deeper as a hole into some of the

environmental factors that occur during

this first year of major childhood

development and I know there’s at least

from my pediatric rotation at least what

25 or 26 vaccines during that period I

mean outside of purely genetic factors

what do you think are some of the issues

going on during this first year of

development that could be an issue here

with the with this autistic boom that’s

going on I think it’s what is it one in

60 till dhryn is is expected to have

autism yeah well there are 14 different

vaccines given in the first piece of

life i guess you can get as many as 26

different inoculations to prevent 14

different diseases I actually I don’t

think there is an environmental factor

at least not one that’s present after

birth clearly I mean there is there is a

genetics taught ISM the the genes appear

code for development

proteins that are typically expressed in

the first and second trimester and

although I think there can be

environmental exposures while the child

is still in the womb things like

valproic acid and falooda might have

both been shown to increase the risk of

autism I really don’t think I think if

you’re autistic at five your autistic it

to your autistic when you’re born so

although I understand there’s sort of a

lot of interest in trying to figure out

what it is postnatally that’s causing

autism honestly I prediction is going to

be they’ll find nothing hmmm dr. Arvid

if I just bouncing here how do you feel

about the anti-vaccination movement and

the people who are vehemently against

vaccines taking vaccines well I guess

there’s I guess I see it as two

different groups the I think most people

are not part of an anti-vaccine movement

I think most people just don’t fear the

diseases um as a consequence they they

don’t feel compelled to get vaccines

they’re looking for reasons not to get

them and certainly you can find plenty

of reasons i’ll be at false ones on the

internet to support your fear on the

true anti-vaccine but i’m talking about

the professionals groups like the

national vaccine information center were

moms against mercury or safe minds or

Generation Rescue I mean those people

the people who dedicate themselves to

putting out bad information about

vaccines on the Internet I think that

they do a tremendous disservice to the

children in this country in a better

world they wouldn’t be allowed to put

out that kind of Miss informations like

shouting fire in a crowded movie theater

puts children and people at risk do you

think your position at Merck might have

I mean there’s there’s an article that

says that do you still agree with this

position that a baby can safely handle

as many as 10,000 vaccine safely during

infancy first of all I don’t have a

position at Merck I’m like a professor

of pediatrics in the division of

infectious disease the Children’s

Hospital photo have never had a position

at Merck okay what do you mean by that

it certainly though when we created the

strains in the in the 1980s and late 80s

and early 90s that we thought could be

the rotavirus vaccine wrote attack we

went to several different pharmaceutical

companies in the hopes of finding one

who would be interested in making it I

mean I don’t see what the choice was I’d

love to hear what you think a choice

might have been

pharmaceutical companies is the only

ones that had the resources and

expertise to make a vaccine an effort to

cost a little over a billion dollars so

that’s what that was the statement that

you made that a baby can handle as many

as 10,000 vaccine safely during infancy

DS to agree with that position no I

think I probably understated it I was

asked the question how many different

antigens can one handle in the first in

the first say in the first year of life

and so one can calculate that you know

the number of B and T cells that are

that are released by the bone marrow

which is Anna ten to the ninth a region

you know the number of epitopes which is

to say distinct immunological reasons

regions that are present on various

antigens and so you can calculate how

many different epitopes one could

theoretically respond to if you add up

actually all the not all the

immunological components in vaccines it

totals about about 155 160 which is

trivial and so we make 10 to the 9th

nubian T cells every day I think

probably the number is probably closer

to a hundred thousand and that would be

sort of per day I because we’re

constantly making new B&T so I think

unfortunately that that statement got

interpreted by the media is saying that

I think children should get 10,000

vaccines a day obviously that’s not what

I mean I was just answering the question

how many could they get and I think

that’s I stand by that statement do you

feel that there should be a little more

integrity as far as journalists and as

far as you can call themselves an expert

in certain field especially concerning

science technology and health sure that

would be nice I’d love to live on that

planet as it stands we the people who

choose to represent a science

information to the public often have

little expertise in science or medicine

um and so what they tend to do is they

tend to tell a two sides of the story

when only one side is supported by the

science I would argue that in the name

of balance they think that this is the

right thing to do I would argue that

that I think in a better world their

mantra would not be bounced but would be

perspective I think that their their

their job should be to educate the

public not simply to prevent present

everything as a controversy when some

things aren’t controversies it’s a very

weird time because you know most people

have considerable accessed in

nation and they can you know for the

most part intelligently decipher the

science and research and shouldn’t they

be able to make these decisions for

themselves and what I’m kind of getting

at is are we approaching an era where

you know patients no longer see us as

physicians as this kind of white cloak

God and more in this consultant role

well I certainly when I was a little boy

I mean my my physician would make house

calls which Doug held I am and and my

mother thought of him as God I think you

know anything he said when she never

question anything he said I think this

is a woman who was perfectly willing to

question people but she never questioned

him and it was a very sort of

paternalistic arguably condescending

time I think we wanted to shake that off

and so we want parents to be

participants in the decision and then

the notion again I know this is going to

be unpopular but I think it’s a false

one I think the notion that one can

truly educate themselves about vaccines

it by looking at information on the

internet is false one I mean so for

example if you’re if you’re interested

in trying to decide whether or not your

child should get a chickenpox varicella

vaccine you should read the 300 articles

that are out there on chickenpox vaccine

so you can figure out I mean what is the

difference between a vaccine virus and

the wild type virus what are the

sequence differences how does the

vaccine virus reproduce itself in the

body is compared to the wild type virus

what are the data on safety what are the

data and efficacy and I think to do that

I mean to look through those 300 studies

and then know that you would have to

have some sort of background in in

virology immunology statistics

epidemiology I think few parents have

that I think few parents frankly kenken

redoes article and I think the same

thing is true of doctors I don’t I think

most doctors frankly have that kind of

expertise and so what do we do we rely

on groups at least to collectively have

that expertise groups like you know the

the Advisory Committee for immunization

practices to the Centers for Disease

Control and Prevention or the committee

of infectious diseases for the you know

for the american academy of pediatrics

and those groups have served as well but

again i mean i think you’re right it’s

very hard to say you know trust that’s

where experts we like to think that

people should be able to participate in

their own a health and so we want the

parent to make the decision but if we’re

going to

do that then we have to be willing to

stand back and watch parents make bad

decisions they can put their children in

harm’s way and and and ultimately result

in their child being hospitalized or die

we certainly see that in our Hospital

there is not a year that goes by where

child doesn’t come into our hospital and

dies of the vaccine preventable disease

invariably because the parent made that

choice and it’s a maid choice it seems

very clear that there is this growing

distrust for whatever reason between the

two as far as health care professionals

and patients but doesn’t share the onus

beyond Western healthcare and us as

physicians to facilitate or kind of

bridge this widening chasm that’s going

on I mean how do we reconcile this I

think our job is physicians is to help

parents through the dense thicket of

information to make the best decisions

for themselves and for their children

III think that that means providing

information and a passionate and

compassionate way i’m not sure what the

term Western medicine means i think

there’s there’s medicine and then

there’s not medicine i mean good

medicine is based on good science

independent of where where where its

origins were and so i think that’s our

job so I mean it’s clear that we’ve kind

of we’ve definitely lost control as far

as in the role of patient care at least

in this country for the most part and it

seems that there’s a lot of suits and

industry executives that are kind of

running hospitals and most medical

centers now what’s your take on this I’m

not sure which for me about that

question I think that um that your job

my job as a pediatrician at Children’s

Hospital frankly is to pay little

attention to the suits or executives

that are running our hospital and to do

my job and my job is to try and provide

the best medical care i can in to try

and educate the best way and i guess i’m

not quite as as as down on the

relationship between the physician and

the patient um I sure there’s distrust

but i think you know if you if you act

in a trustworthy manner and people see

you as caring then i think that can all

be bridged so i really i really enjoyed

um in your book you spoke at length this

is bad faith about the particulars of

several of i guess these religious cults

that i wasn’t to heard of christian

science of her the other ones but i was

actually kind of startled by some of the

belief structures within these

indoctrinations what groups do you feel

pose the greatest threat right now as

far as just need

it states alone well certainly the faith

healers I mean there’s tens of thousands

of groups that are faith healers which

is to say that when their children have

bacterial pneumonia or bacterial

meningitis or they have they may choose

prayer instead of antibiotics they

choose prayer instead of insulin for

diabetes they choose prayer instead of

of anti-seizure medicines for epilepsy

or prayer instead of bronchodilators for

asthma I mean those children’s don’t

always die but they certainly suffer and

and we stand back so I think it’s one

group that’s certainly a problem i think

the Jehovah’s Witness group who choose

not to give themselves with their

children blood transfusions providing a

lesser problem in the sense that there’s

clearly supreme court verdicts that

don’t allow you to deny a life-saving

blood transfused your child you can do

that to yourself you’re allowed to

martyr yourself to your own religion but

you’re not allowed to more to your child

to your religion and there are other

practices I mean there are um I think

you guys are counting from California

but any certainly in the Northeast and

in Lakewood New Jersey in Brooklyn New

York there are ultra Orthodox Jewish

Royals Royals being the person who

performs a ritual circumcision that

instead of cleaning off the wound with

sterile gauze you know will use their

mouth to clean off the wound which puts

the child at risk for a herpes which can

cause permanent brain damage or be fatal

we see that we see at least 14 deaths

from from that and is that still going

on oh sure yes so dr. Rafat do you do

you think that the vaccine injury risk

and weighing the risks versus taking a

vaccine and and the disease I mean it

what what is that I mean how do you

calculate that what are the risks I mean

I would say you know it certainly if you

look on the internet you would you would

assume falsely the risks associated with

getting a vaccine includes to include a

variety of chronic diseases like autism

or diabetes or multiple sclerosis or

chronic bowel disease all of which are

incorrect have been shown to be

incorrect I mean if you if what are the

real risks of vaccines certainly pain

and tenderness at the site of injection

the swine flu vaccine that was given in

1976 was found to be a rare cause of

something called young ray syndrome

which was an ascending paralysis but

hasn’t happened before or since um the

yellow fever vaccine has been associated

with about fifty five deaths since its

inception in the in the night

1930s so on and and that’s been

primarily in the elderly measles

containing vaccine can cause a lowering

of the platelet count so-called

thrombocytopenia which can cause a

transient you know Tiki I so-called it’s

like broken blood vessels but that is

transient um I think that the pandemics

of vaccine that was used in Scandinavian

countries which was that sort of you

know 2009 swine flu strain was admitted

with squalene seemed to be a rare cause

of narcolepsy which is a disorder of

wakefulness and that’s it honestly I

think that’s it what do you do not sorry

I think about there also you can if you

are severely allergic to gelatin there

are some vaccines which have gelatin in

that so you can have an immediate type

hypersensitivity or allergic reaction

that which is why you’re asked to stay

in a doctor’s office for about 15

minutes after you get a vaccine but but

that’s it so with that said should

vaccines be forced on a populist forest

that’s the word we want to use um it’s

striking to me that somebody like chris

Christie in New Jersey will say that

when it comes to vaccines it’s a

parent’s choice that’s what he said um

now he lives in a state that has a

carseat requirement you you if you live

in the state of New Jersey and you were

found not to put your child in the car

seat while you’re in the car you will

get a ticket there’s a name for the

program it’s called the click it or

ticket program there’s no philosophical

exemption two car seats there is no

religious exemption two car seats the

reason car seats are safe and effective

and they save lives I would argue that

vaccines are no different why me why

should you be allowed to put your child

at unnecessary risk because of a false

belief you have about vaccine safety why

and this is pure devil’s advocate here

but I mean as far as as far as slippery

slopes go where does this go as far as

civil liberties are concerned as far as

you know compulsory vaccinations why is

it your right to put your child at risk

why is that as that as simple Liberty do

we have did I would argue the child also

has rights and frankly if you look at

the Fourteenth Amendment it allows for

equal protection under the law which is

to say children also should be equally

protected even if they happen to have

parents that have false beliefs beliefs

about vaccine I mean

I don’t I don’t understand why

children’s rights aren’t also part of

this I mean I think that in a better

world you wouldn’t need to have vaccine

mandates because anybody who really

understood the data about vaccine safety

and efficacy would get them every time I

mean I think I have a pretty good

understanding about backs needs both of

my children are fully vaccinated and

therefore I benefit my children and I

benefit society I think that if if

everyone had a good understanding about

vaccines they would all do that but some

people have have misunderstandings about

vaccine safety so they decide to put

their child at unnecessary risk which

can occasionally kill them and so I

don’t see why that should be your right

as a parent to point your child and

unnecessary right any risk any more than

it should be to not put your child in a

seatbelt or in a car seat that should

also should not be you’re right doctor

of it if sorry to interrupt here but do

you do you hold is this true or not true

do you hold a patent on a vaccine that

you developed through mark I am I

research with the Children’s Hospital of

Philadelphia me and my two co-inventors

have a pad to have a patent so you’re

not you’re not earning millions of

dollars on royalty through a patent that

you dealt with Merck that’s correct I’m

not I make as much money off the sale of

a rotavirus vaccine as you do which I’m

assuming is nothing okay fair enough so

so then the question becomes why am i

doing what I’m doing because it’s the

right thing to do I think it’s surprise

to some people that I take this this

position it forcefully they assume I

must be in somebody’s pocket and i am

i’m in the pocket of of children I other

children’s because I care about children

that’s why I do what I do it’s why we

created a vaccine and it’s why I

continue to do this even though I’m

asked questions like this about why you

know I thought I must be in someone’s

pocket I’m not there’s a there’s a whole

you know there’s a whole stream of

information on the internet that really

disagrees with you I mean it if you’re

hated on the internet it was a list so

you’re saying to me is that maybe it’s

possible to you’re allowed to lie on the

internet I’m just saying that people

perceive you in a certain light and so

that’s what we’re doing here we’re

clearing that up yeah here

use the way it works I think that if

there were clear data that vaccines

caused the problems that they cause we

would hear about those data but what

happens is is that it’s like the old you

know legal mantra the aphorism you know

when the laws on your side you argued

law when the facts are on your side you

argue the fact when neither on your side

they attack the witness and so I that’s

that’s what happens to me I think I’m

attacked at personally because there

aren’t data to support that point of

view and so and they know that the media

loves that sort of story that you know

the person who’s in the pocket of

industry story that’s a story that will

always sell even when it’s not true and

if you keep doing that if you keep

repeating a lie over and over again then

you know some people will believe it’s

true even when it’s not true we

appreciate you know the transparency the

clarity for our listeners it’s just I

think it goes back we originally talking

about as far as having that that seed of

distrust that I think people have with

the medical establishment and they just

probably they might be looking for any

angle to kind of plant that seed or let

it grow a little bit but I mean we can

we can let’s shift back a little bit

more to your book right now and as far

as you’re talking about faith and these

religious cult where do you where do you

draw the line between faith and delusion

that is a great question and i would say

that when i wrote this book that was the

question i struggled with the most i

wrote a book about what they wrote one

chapter about him in a name larry parker

who wrote a book called we let our son

died which may sound like it’s ameya

culpa but it wasn’t actually while he

let his son died he saw this is an

expression of his faithfulness that he

was able to maintain his faithfulness so

throughout that night this was a man who

was very sophisticated medically I had a

chance to talk to him on the phone he

was he had his son and his eldest son

had type 1 diabetes he’d been giving

that son insulin and then he just

decided to stop and pray for his insulin

for his diabetes to go away he was part

of a mainstream Church in barstow

california wasn’t a faith healing church

people were arguing with him that he

shouldn’t do that but he did that he he

he prayed until his son died he watched

him die over a several day period he

knew he knew exactly what the symptoms

were of someone who had too much into

little injury insulin because it was

very sophisticated meadow medically when

his child died he then at the funeral

service tried to res

wrecked him he declared the the funeral

site as holy ground he has people to

take off their shoes and then when his

son wasn’t resurrected spoiler alert

here on his son wasn’t successfully

resurrected he then didn’t go to the

funeral to the actual burial portion

because he believed that his son would

be resurrected after four days much as

Jesus was resurrected here for four days

and so then that’s how I didn’t even go

that that’s just science I mean everyone

has that so so so so is he is he

delusional i think is he is heaps I

ghiroli psychotic I mean does he does it

I think the answer to that question is

in a better world yes I think he’s

phenomenally delusional but remember

that that there were many people in his

prayer prayer group who along with him

were praying we’re praying for his son

instead of giving him insulin there were

hundreds of people that went to that to

the the funeral service where he was to

be resurrected we just open had called

he wanted to come a lot of people wanted

to come watch that resurrection I mean

people like Oral Roberts who’s a popular

evangelist has claimed that he’s done

resurrections and no one sort of put him

in in non institution after he made that

claim in many of his believers her

followers believe that that’s true too

so I mean if we’re going to label him

psychotic that we have to label tens of

thousands of faith healers and psychotic

if we’re going to label him as psychotic

because this belief about resurrection

similarly we’ll have to label a lot of

people that way too so it becomes sort

of ignore you know that the these kinds

of beliefs it’s a hard question to

answer I wish I had the answer it’s you

actually we’re going to you answer the

next question to ask you because

according to you know the dsm-5 and for

our listeners that’s basically the Bible

for mental illness and psychiatric

disorders I mean if you look at some of

the beliefs you know not to denigrate

Christianity but contemporary

Christianity you mentioned Oral Roberts

according to dsm-5 and the the

diagnostic Stan a manual that’s

psychosis so what’s what’s going to

happen between science and religion and

this gap or this this amalgamation of

the two in the coming years that you see

well it i think the fix is actually easy

the fixes of legislative fix i mean this

this faith healing stuff doesn’t happen

in England it doesn’t happen in Canada

if you do that if you medically neglect

your child in the name of God you will

you will likely go to jail and you would

your children will be placed in foster

homes that’s a real disincentive to do

that and so they don’t have that problem

and frankly we didn’t have that problem

in this country up until the mid-1970s

but in you know under Richard Nixon’s

administration there was something

passed a called CAPTA child abuse

protection and treatment act ironically

it was a chance for the federal

government to provide millions of

dollars to States to States to help them

recognize child abuse and and and treat

it and prevent it but there were two

prominent Christian Scientists and

Richard Nixon’s administration who saw

an uncomfortable light about to be shown

on their religion then so they insisted

that you couldn’t get federal money

until you had a religious exemption to

child abuse neglect including medical

neglect on the books in your state and

so all 50 states passed those laws in

the mid-1970s this is the cap the cap to

act you’re talking about so yeah so cap

that’s right and if you read that caveat

that’s put in the codicil that’s put

into that cap that it’s clearly written

by a Christian Scientist I mean they

describe the person who praised as a

practitioner they describe the prayers

as treatments that’s the way Christian

Scientists describe their their their

healings and those two men ultimately

went to jail one of them was Nixon’s

chief of staff Bob Haldeman the other

was the domestic policy advisor John

Ehrlichman both went to jail for the

role in Watergate but they did this

right before they went to jail so I mean

you don’t have to answer this but I’m

assuming off it is a Jewish name are you

a fellow member of the tribe off it is a

shortened form of the name option it’s

and yes I’m sure the healthcare programs

are a lot bhama care how do you feel

about them well you know I’m probably

not the one to ask that question I mean

I’m a basic science researcher and so

although I do practice medicine I do it

solely for inpatients in our hospital I

think you’re probably the the people who

are who you should talk to her the

people who were executives in our

hospital they probably have much better

sense than I do I’m that’s below mine

it’s way above my pay grade I don’t know

I’m not being honest like I should know

more I actually don’t know I you know I

just we see our patients we bill other

people take care of that hopefully it’s

all working out I don’t know the reason

i ask the Jewish thing I was just

curious as what to you know what

religious upbringing was as far as your

background growing up and how that’s

changed with your medical practice

writing this book you know even the

process of writing this book how’s your

spirituality or your take on religion

changed well my father was was very

religious as are currently my brought my

father since passed away but my brother

and sister are quite religious um I’m

not I you know I I’m not religious and

frankly when I wrote this book you know

after sort of talking to these parents

and writing a story after story of

people medically neglecting their

children in the name of God I thought I

would sort of come down in the way that

you know that Christopher Hitchens are

Richard Dawkins or sam Harris did that’s

sort of you know kind of militant

atheism that you know the religion is is

is a logical and potentially harmful but

I didn’t actually I mean I actually read

through the Old Testament and New

Testament pretty carefully and and and

although I’m Jewish I was really taken

by the figure described as V soon as

Erick I was I you know I mean it’s

practically just independent of whether

you believe in the existence of the

Supreme Being and I don’t but or you

believe that Jesus was the son of God

and I don’t um because I don’t believe

in the existence of Supreme Being or you

if you don’t even if you don’t see the

Gospels at least the four Gospels that

made it into the final Canada’s as an

accurate reflection of Jesus’s life and

work you you know Jesus lived between

roughly 4 BC and 30 a date you have to

be impressed with the figure described

as Jesus of Nazareth I mean this was a

man ahead of his time he had his time

you know a child abuse was the crying

vice of the Roman Empire um you know

abandonment was common infanticide was

common children didn’t matter they were

property they were really no different

than slaves that wasn’t geez I mean

Jesus stood up with the the quote that I

actually wrote a piece in The New York

Times called what would Jesus do about

measles but the quote that I use that’s

Matthew 25 40 verily I say unto you what

you what you do on to the least of my

brethren you do unto me I mean that that

could be emblazoned on the entranceway

of every Children’s Hospital in the

world I’m just you just really impressed

by that and I don’t understand what I

lived through the 1991 Philadelphia

measles epidemic and you know we had

fourteen hundred cases of measles and

I nest and centered on to fundamentalist

churches that refuse not only vaccines

but medical care for their children I

mean that statement that was used when

these children with the I was you know

Jesus was my doctor I don’t get it I

really don’t get how you arrived at that

conclusion from reading the New

Testament and quite frankly I was really

upset that members of the Christian

community in 1991 in Philadelphia didn’t

stand up and say this isn’t us this is

an unchristian thing to do to put your

children in harm’s way dr. Rafat you I

think you were quoted in a New York

Times editorial in 2013 that people

should skip the supplements uh I mean

why do you say that well I mean it’s

like all things i think i think there’s

no such thing as alternative medicine i

think the medicine works and it’s then

it’s then it’s medicine and or an

alternative medicine works as medicine

alternative medicine doesn’t work then

it’s not an alternative my feeling about

dietary supplements is that they should

be held to the same standard as drugs I

mean they are drugs they have a

physiological or pharmacological if

that’s what’s test this drugs let’s see

whether they really are safe and

effective let’s see whether or not you

know the label actually reflects what’s

in the bottle these things are

manufactured under Good Manufacturing

Practices I mean where is the evidence

that that these did these substances are

with their claim to be I just think

we’re getting duped that we allow

ourselves to be doomed I think a lot of

the issues are at hand or that a lot of

the studies have shown the synthetic by

OMA the synthetic vitamins and the

synthetic molecules and there’s some

studies that show you know increases in

cognition and mood for bioavailable

vitamins and minerals but it’s it’s all

in notes there’s lies damn lies and

statistics you know we could we could

generate any kind of information we want

from anything that we look at yeah but

you know it’s it’s ever since 1994 this

industry has been loosed from the Food

Drug Administration and and that’s not a

good thing um so it’s the wink and nod

of the industry right i mean they don’t

make specific medical claims because

they can’t if they made a specific

medical claim then you know they would

be regulated by the update so they say

things like you know for saw palmetto

that it supports prostate health even

no the studies have been done show that

it does nothing to shrink prostates and

men who have benign prostatic

hypertrophy or that you know the garlic

is concentrated garlic is good for

cardiovascular health the week and not

being you know that it lowers very

low-density lipoprotein which it doesn’t

and that’s been shown again and again so

I it’s whatever these these products

have been put to the test i think

there’s 80,000 of them in the market

there’s probably not 20 of them that

have been really tested in any sort of

prospective controlled way they never

seem to do with your claim to do you

know so shouldn’t shouldn’t the consumer

be upset about that hmm that’s a very

good point dr. ave we really do

appreciate your time there you do have a

new book out where can people find more

about your work so you cannot well that

mean the book is called bad faith when

religious belief undermines modern

medicine it can be purchased in

bookstores or on the internet so um take

a look and your website actually do have

a website it’s um embarrasses have a

website sure it’s the one who put it out

I just thought that kind of person that

has that but it’s it’s Paul dash off it

dot com I think you’re calm okay Paul

dashed off it calm well dr. Rafat thank

you so much for being here this is the

human experience my name is Xavier my

co-host dr. G and we are out of here

thank you so much for listening thank

you thanks doctor